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Flounder Size Limit Increases

11K views 50 replies 9 participants last post by  Topsail Angler 
#1 ·
PROCLAMATION RE: FLOUNDER – RECREATIONAL PURPOSE
Dr. Louis B. Daniel III, Director, Division of Marine Fisheries, hereby announces that effective at 12:01 A.M., Saturday, March 1, 2008, the following restrictions will apply to the taking of flounder for recreational purposes:
I. MINIMUM SIZE LIMITS AND AREAS

It is unlawful to possess flounder less than 15 ½ inches total length taken from internal and Atlantic Ocean fishing waters for recreational purposes except as specified below:

PAMLICO SOUND - No person may possess flounder less than 14 inches total length taken from internal waters for recreational purposes west of a line beginning at a point on Point of Marsh in Carteret County at 35° 04.6166’N – 76° 27.8000’W, then running northeasterly to a point at Bluff Point in Hyde County at 35° 19.7000’N – 76° 09.8500’W. In Core and Clubfoot creeks, the Highway 101 Bridge constitutes the boundary north of which flounder must be at least 14 inches total length.

ALBEMARLE SOUND - No person may possess flounder less than 14 inches total length taken from internal waters for recreational purposes west of a line beginning at a point 35° 57.3950’N – 76° 00.8166’W on Long Shoal Point; running easterly to a point 35° 56.7316’N – 75° 59.3000’ W near Marker “5” in Alligator River; running northeasterly along the Intracoastal Waterway to a point 36° 09.3033’N - 75° 53.4916’W near Marker “171” at the mouth of North River; running northwesterly to a point 36° 09.9093’N – 75° 54.6601’W on Camden Point.

BROWNS INLET-SOUTH – No person may possess flounder less than 14 inches total length in internal and Atlantic Ocean fishing waters for recreational purposes west and south of a line beginning at a point 34° 37.0000’N – 77° 15.000’W; running southeasterly to a point 34° 32.0000’N – 77° 10.0000’W.

II. CREEL LIMIT
It is unlawful to possess more than eight (8) flounder taken for recreational purposes per person per day or per trip if a trip occurs on more than one calendar day. The possession limit shall apply to flounder taken from internal and Atlantic Ocean fishing waters by all gears, including gigs, if possession is for a recreational purpose.

III. GENERAL INFORMATION
A. This proclamation is issued under the authority of N.C.G.S. 113-170.4; 113-170.5; 113-182; 113-221.1; 143B-289.52 and N.C. Marine Fisheries Rules 15A NCAC 3H .0103; 3I .0102, 3M .0503 and 3M .0512.
B. It is unlawful to violate the provisions of any proclamation issued by the Fisheries Director under his delegated authority pursuant to N.C. Marine Fisheries Rule 15A NCAC 3H .0103.

C. The intent of this proclamation is to maintain North Carolina’s compliance with the requirements of the joint Mid-Atlantic Fisheries Management Council-Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission Summer Flounder Fisheries Management Plan under the authority of N.C. Fisheries Rule 15A NCAC 3M .0512. This proclamation continues the minimum size limit of flounder taken for recreational purposes in internal waters west of a line in Pamlico Sound from Point of Marsh to Bluff Point and in Albemarle Sound west of Alligator River at 14 inches. The size limit east of those lines and in all other internal waters and the Atlantic Ocean north of Browns Inlet becomes 15 ½ inches total length.
D. This proclamation does not affect commercial fishing operations. Commercial harvest reduction requirements were met by a reduction in their total annual quota.
E. This proclamation supersedes Proclamations FF-9-2007, dated February 6, 2007, and FF-10-2007, dated February 8, 2007.
 
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#3 ·
I'm ok with that. I just worry that it means more females will be kept as they are the bigger of the species. I guess nets/gigs will get em anyway.
 
#4 ·
I'm ok with that. I just worry that it means more females will be kept as they are the bigger of the species.
Drop - I'm afraid I don't follow your logic :confused: So help me out here.

Most flounder over 3 pounds are females, but there is no slot for flounder (no upper size limit) so folks have always been able to keep the bigger fish anyway - nothing has changed there. Also you'll be no more likely to catch a 22" fish than you were before so that doesn't work. Just means you'll have to throw back more fish till you can reach your limit but as most of us flounder guys will tell you - most folks don't reach their limit anyway.

Another point - a lot of those 14" to 15" inch fish we throw back are just going to end up in the commercial fisherman's cooler anyway cause they still have a 14" min size.
 
#5 ·
I'm not much of a Flounder fisherman. I love cacthing them, but most of my kept fish would barely squeak by the old 14.5" limit. I believe in the conservation so, I don't mind the increased size limit but I wonder if a decrease in creel limit is not also in order.

I'm still quite confused by the whole the commercial fishing situation so, I'm neither firmly against nor firmly in favor. However, don't these fish breed in the creeks and estruararies? If so, wouldn't it make sense to limit netting operations in these areas?
 
#6 ·
I'm with ya Blacklash, I have no problem with conserving our stocks if that is what is needed. Flounder limits are complicated but I'll try to summarize.

Basically the limit allowed is measured in pounds of landed fish and is dictated to NC by the two councils that regulate summer flounder (Mid- Atlantic & Southern States). NC then in turn must enforce those limits. They divide up the total allotment into recreational and commercial categories and then come up with a way to implement those allotments.

There are two factors involved in setting limits, min. size of the fish and numbers. For commercial fisherman, the number is expressed in pounds of fish, for recreational anglers it is expressed in the number of fish. But at the end of the day (so to speak) for recs, they project the number of fish caught by recs and the average weight (guessed) and then convert that into pounds of fish (remember the original quota/allotment is given in pounds).

So as you can see on the rec side there is a lot of guess work. Size of the fish also plays into how long a female will be around to spawn. Female flounder are around 13 1/2 inch when they reach spawning age, the bigger they get (the older they get in other words) the more chances they have to spawn.

Summer flounder spawn offshore in the winter. Other types of flounder found here (Southern and Gulf flounder) spawn inshore and at different times. Unfortunately the average angler can't/doesn't identify the difference in species and neither does the State so they are using data from one species (Summer) to set the guidelines for all (not smart in my book).

I wish they would have made the size limit the same for both groups and in fact the same for the entire state.
 
#9 ·
Yup - I put the co-ordinates in my GPS map program. If you run a line that is perpendicular to shore and lay it on the north edge of Brown's inlet and let it extend out to sea, anything northeast of the line is 15.5 inches, anywhere Southwest of the line is 14 inch min. I attached a map I made with the program.
 

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#11 ·
I think Comm need tighter regs and smaller quotas. I also agree that they are 2 species and need to be treated differently. I think keeping a few smaller ones (13-14) will boost the number of males kept and by limiting the size above that to a "slot" say 16.5" and over means NO fish between 14.5 and 16.5 can be kept. So naturally more females would get to spawn multiple times before they go in the grease.
It would suit me if inshore netting was banned or at least limited to 2 short seasons a year. I also feel that gigging should be considered commercial harvest or "special harvest" and have it's own tight requirements and require an additional license/permit if not banned all together or also short seasoned. I don't think it is sporting, but I don't think you should Deer hunt with dogs either so I'm sure many disagree as is their right.
 
#12 ·
Sundrop - I respectfully disagree with you on the 13.5 inch fish - that would just ensure that more females never get to spawn at all or reduce the number of times they can spawn. Putting a max size is a more effective way to ensure females spawn and remain in the fishery longer. They use the "slot" on stripers in the river and for drum and it has been very effective. It might be good to have a slot for flounder for a few years. But decreasing the allotment for both recs and commercial fisherman is also needed.
 
#13 ·
I took a look at the NCDMF Flounder Fact Sheet which naturally appaers to be out of date. However, it appears that they see this a s Rec. Angler problem. They state , that the rec sector has exceeded their quotas by 27 million pounds, thus requiring them to extend the size limit from 15 inches to 15.5 inches. It appears that the data was from 2002 but, I assume the same mentality exsists in the current regulations.

NC Summer Flounder Fact Sheet
 
#28 ·
I took a look at the NCDMF Flounder Fact Sheet which naturally appaers to be out of date. However, it appears that they see this a s Rec. Angler problem. They state , that the rec sector has exceeded their quotas by 27 million pounds, thus requiring them to extend the size limit from 15 inches to 15.5 inches. It appears that the data was from 2002 but, I assume the same mentality exsists in the current regulations.

NC Summer Flounder Fact Sheet
That data & report is well outdated.

Here is the data for 2006, the most recent data currently available from NCDMF's web site:

Southern Flounder (NC)
Commercial fisherman - 2, 297,531 pounds (86.5%)
Recreational Fisherman - 357,588 pounds (13.5%)

Summer Flounder (NC)
Commercial Fisherman - 3,966,148 pounds (95%)
Recreational Fisherman - 203,582 pounds (5%)

Total of the two species (NC) (third species in NC is Gulf flounder but very small & not included here)
Commercial - 6,263,679 pounds (91.8 %)
Recreational - 561,170 pounds ((8.2 %)

So as you can see, Commercial fisherman have by far the most impact on flounder in our state.

Backlash - those figures you mentioned from the report are for the entire fishery - in all states not just NC - I mention just so people don't think that we went from 27 million pounds of Summer flounder in 2002 to 4 million in 2006.

Also of note from that 2002 report is this statement:
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North Carolina receives the largest commercial quota of any state, 27.4 percent, because historically the state has landed significant quantities of commercially-caught flounder. Last year, anglers in North Carolina landed 5.6 percent of the coast-wide recreational harvest. We have minimal recreational landings of summer flounder, especially when compared to states like New Jersey, New York and Virginia.
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#14 ·
TA I guess ultimately what I am "trying" to acheive with limited knowledge I admit is an adequate, easy to catch number of allowed "keepers" for Recs to satisfy the desire to eat fish, while still having large productive fish out there to carry on the species yet stil have a size/quota on larger fish to let you carry one home to brag about occasionally.
I definately see the advantages of a slot limit. I also see a need for lower quotas for both Rec and Comm. I dont think we disagree exactly, I just thing you have a better awareness of actual sizes and spawning habits than I do to base opinion on. So I will thank you for making me better informed :) I think we are in the same ballpark...
 
#20 ·
All I can go by at this point is what the release says - I'm trying to get a hold of our local DMF officer to verify but by what the proclamation says, everything south & west of that line is 14 inches so that would include all of the New River and Topsail Sound. Of course that area was already 14" but the ocean was 14 1/2. So in effect they lowered the ocean min. by 1/2 inch and left the rest of Topsail & south the same as before (14"). Or at least that is the way the proclamation seems to read to me.
 
#22 ·
They make this so much harder than it has to be........
 
#25 ·
10-4 TA, just seems like an across the board measurement would be simplier, try to explain to a warden,

Well according to the rules, my boat is parked int 15 inch zone(GPS) and my fishing lines are in the other zone 14 inch. Which fish can I keep???

Or explain I caught them a couple of islands down and I just moved to this one??????

I can see a ruckus brewing******

tight lines <*)))))>{
 
#29 ·
The faces making the decisions need to change. Then maybe we can get some good data and level the playng field. I do think all in all after some thought that a simple size limit and creel adjustment would be best for Recs.
If Comm. are regulated by poundage, how are these guys weighing in?
 
#33 ·
I just wasnt sure how they managed it. You don't exactly see "seafood cops" riding the streets..LOL I see ALOT of seafood sold at flea markets now and I wondered how many were following the rules.... I also see how easy it looks to net or gig, run into a private dock or ramp and offload for resale. Too many out there willing to take chances like that nowadays....

and I have no doubt recs do wrong too......
 
#36 ·
Oh I forgot - the seafood cops so to speak are here on the coast, where the seafood is, I don't mean that sarcastically. They do most of their enforcement right where the source is, on the coast which makes lots of sense. Ask any Commercial guy - many of them get boarded or stopped 2 or 3 times a week. All the seafood processors are checked regularly and probably less frequently they check on the retail markets.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a know-i-t all. Just that I was born and rasied on the coast spending most of my free time fishing, on the docks and around boats and fisherman. Living in the "seafood capital" of the Carolinas has rubbed off on me too (more seafood is processed in Hampstead than anywhere else in the Carolinas).
 
#35 ·
Scott - exactly. That was point too.

BTW - if someone is buying seafood at at flea market, I'd advise them to be very careful. Shrimp on the side of the road is one thing (usually no problem), flounder is another (not a good idea, go to a reputable seafood monger instead).
 
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