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Lack of enforcement of the regulations

6K views 57 replies 15 participants last post by  Drum Runner 
#1 ·
I was at the Davidson yesterday and saw at least 5 people spin fishing in the fly only section. 3 even hanging off the bridge over the creek by the hatchery. I know the department is probably stressed from a manpower standpoint, but I did see one warden driving down the road.

In fairness the signs aren't very conspicuous to what the rules are as far as flies only. I ran into a guy away from the hatchery who had no clue, and said he had even had a trout dinner the night before. Nice guy, who sincerely didn't know the rules. I told him to be careful and he promptly broke down his rod. He was more interested in watching me fish and learning about fly fishing. He watched me fish for about 30 minutes as I explained what I was doing. He said he had a fly outfit but didn't know how to do it, but was now going to start. Unfortunately didn't get his info.
 
#2 ·
While I would like to see the regs on the books enforced, if the one they're not enforcing is the FF only regs on the D, I can't say it makes me too sorry. I've never thought it fair that the premier trout fishery in the state was all but closed to the average angler. Particularly given the relatively high costs associated with fly fishing, it always strikes me as a 'King's Deer' sort of situation where the cream of the crop is maintained as a private fiefdom of the wealthy.

Plus, pure C&R isn't good for the fishery. The average fish would be a good bit larger if some were being harvested, imo.
 
#29 ·
I've never thought it fair that the premier trout fishery in the state was all but closed to the average angler. Particularly given the relatively high costs associated with fly fishing, it always strikes me as a 'King's Deer' sort of situation where the cream of the crop is maintained as a private fiefdom of the wealthy.
That's a load of bull. Argue against the regulation if you like, but it's got nothing to do with money. Fly fishing is cheaper than ANY kind of fishing in a boat.
 
#3 ·
Don't get me wrong, I told the guy not to worry about keeping some fish, that he didn't hurt anything. He was shocked at my regulation revelations. He was a nice guy, I wish I would have directed him here..

I just found it funny that three people were hanging off the hatchery bridge with spinning reels. Not sure if they caught anything.
I know I didn't, one of the few times I've ever been skunked.
 
#7 ·
Biggest trout I've seen in the Davidson was near the hatchery.
The hatchery section used to hold more large fish due to the 'pellet hatch' that occurred when the tanks at the hatchery were flushed. They have since installed a mechanism that pulverizes the excess pellets before they are discharged into the stream, so the large fish are no longer concentrated immediately downstream of the hatchery the way they once were. For the most part, the downstream habitat is more favorable to big trout, so without the pellet hatch to hold them, they're more likely to show up further down the river.

That said the catch and release regulations work on the Davidson. People seem to catch some very nice trout.
The D is a mind-boggling bug factory by the standards of the Southern Appalachians. The nutrient and oxygen rich discharge from the hatchery makes the Davidson kind of like a tailwater river or an artificial spring creek. It's going to be produce plenty of nice fish under almost any regulatory regime. I just think the average fish would be larger if there wasn't a no-cull regulation in place. I'd personally like to see it governed under a slot, or just changed to a "Wild" classification.
 
#9 ·
For what they are, Avery's Creek and Looking Glass Creek are similarly accessible and right in the same location, and they seem to handle the "Wild" designation alright. Moreover, in terms of size and fecundity, the Davidson is nothing like most wild streams. It is much larger and vastly more ecologically productive, and hence supports a trout population that is larger and more dense than typical wild trout water by several orders of magnitude. The D is simply much less vulnerable to fishing pressure than smaller, less fertile streams would be. There's also a lot of evidence to suggest that C&R and fly fishing only designations serve to increase fishing pressure as C&R regs basically scream, "Here there be monster trout!"
 
#11 ·
Something else to think about with regard to the D. By not allowing spin fishing or the keeping of fish on most of the Davidson, you do drive folks who are in the area but don't want to fish the tube hatch around the campground to fish Avery's and Looking Glass, shifting pressure from a stream that can take an unusual amount of pressure onto streams that can't. Changing the regs on the D might improve the fishing on the smaller local wild streams by reducing some of the pressure on them.
 
#12 ·
I think the Davidson used to be managed under a size limit until it went to catch and release regs.

I think the current regs are working fine except they might also want to allow single hook artificial lures as well.

While I agree most mountain trout streams could use some harvest, the Davidson seems to be fine.
 
#19 ·
I hate when you're right. Can you blame people for trying to make a destination fishery in NC? If we could get just some of the hype the Holston has on a river here it would create a huge economical impact. It seems the Holston situation has been a win win for the fish and fisherman.
 
#22 ·
I did, sadly, find a dead 23" brown in the slick just downstream of the hatchery bridge yesterday. It had been gut hooked by someone fishing bait, and obviously then broken off (line appeared to have been cut by the tongue teeth). On the other hand, I also had a 30"+ black fish rip a 12" brown off my line, leaving me with shaking hands and the lower jaw of a now dead trout. Numbers were good, as I ended up with well over 30 brought to hand (Clouser Foxee Red Minnows should possibly be illegal).

Understand, I'm not advocating for allowing corn chuckers and worm dunkers on the main Davidson, I just think allowing some moderate culling of fish could improve the overall fishery, especially from a size perspective.
 
#21 ·
If NC wanted to create a SoHo, they'd have to do it on the Catawba, the Nanty or the Tuck. The Davidson is s tremendously productive fishery, but it simply isn't a big enough stream to be that kind of a 'destination' fishery. For starters, it can't be floated, and it really only takes on the 'artificial spring creek' aspect from the hatchery on down, which is only a small portion of the total public water. There's simply not enough there there to support a real destination fishery. You need a big, floatable river with a minimum of 10-20 miles of top notch water on it.
 
#23 ·
A wildlife biologist recently spoke at a monthly meeting about the Catawba. They are trying to make it a destination fishery. One thing they have found that has increased bug populations is the increase in allowed sewage. The added nutrients have revitalized the insect population and increased trout size. They found they made a mistake by stocking small fish at first. These fish became striper bait. The larger 10-12 inch fish were harder for stripers to catch and eat. The biologist felt the river could rival the Holston some day. They are also working on more launch access points.
 
#25 ·
Depends on handling practices and the season. Mortality rates for released fish are pretty low most of the year, but in the summer, when water temperatures in low gradient streams start pushing into the upper 60s, mortality rates get pretty close to 50%. Unfortunately, mortality rates are likely to be considerably higher for larger fish.
 
#33 ·
fly fishing equipment is more expensive than spin fishing equipment by whole orders of magnitude.
Well, I don't think that's an accurate blanket statement. I've sold a number of spinning and casting rods that are much more expensive than a lot of the fly rods on the market...even more than some complete fly outfits. And there are plenty of spinning and casting reels that are much more expensive than most of the fly reels that my customers purchase. There are a number of spinning reels alone that cost more than an entire fly fishing outfit (rod, reel, line, leader, backing) That's a myth that fly fishing is more expensive. It is only if the angler decides to spend more money.... There are some very good fly fishing combos on the market at less than $145...and there are plenty of spinning rods and reels that cost substantially more than that. If an angler wants a very expensive spinning outfit, he can purchase it. If he wants an inexpensive fly fishing outfit, that's also readily available.
 
#37 ·
Sure, top end spinning equipment is more expensive than bottom end fly fishing equipment, but that's to compare apples to oranges. Comparing apples to apples though, bottom end fly fishing equipment is considerably pricier than bottom end spinning gear (check the prices of the "Ready2Fish" combos at Wally's, the fly version is more than twice as expensive), mid-range fly gear is more expensive than mid-range spinning equipment and the same holds true (but even more drastically) at the top end. So yeah, it's possible to spend more on spinning gear—if you compare high end spinning gear to lower end fly equipment. But I'll tell you, I see a lot more high end fly rods than high end spinning rods out on the streams, and I see a lot more guys fishing Zebco 33 combos than fishing the Wal-Mart special fly combo.
 
#34 ·
Hey Richard,

You've been around long enough to remember this - do you remember that ugly baby poop yellow eagle claw rod that was out in the early to mid 90's? It was $30 and still one of the best 6 weights I have ever held. That thing could cast a mile but had a great sensitive feel.
 
#36 ·
Maybe I'm just older and feel like I get to fish enough, or have ADD, but I don't understand the fun or sport of catching and releasing dozens of standard size trout in one outing. After landing a few and reaffirming that I know what I'm doing and wouldn't starve to death if I were keeping them, I'm ready to move on or try for a truly memorable fish. It would be interesting to see a study of the impact on the resource of "50+ fish on a 3 nymph rig" c&r guy vs regular Joe who catches dinner and quits.
 
#39 ·
There's also something mystical about being so far off the map beating through the brush with no signs that a human has ever been in a stream no wider than my coffee table and no deeper than my ankles, finding a secret hole no bigger than the hood of my car, and pulling a Brookie out that you know has been in that hole it's whole life, and probably it's ancestors for the past thousand years or so. I've seen some big Brookies in the smallest holes, and they're a blast on the 1wt. Some days I need to scratch a different itch. This discussion reminds me of the latest Hank Patterson episode. I must get a wolf-a-doodle and a place to carry some pbr's.
 
#43 ·
There's also something mystical about being so far off the map beating through the brush with no signs that a human has ever been in a stream no wider than my coffee table and no deeper than my ankles, finding a secret hole no bigger than the hood of my car, and pulling a Brookie out that you know has been in that hole it's whole life, and probably it's ancestors for the past thousand years or so. I've seen some big Brookies in the smallest holes, and they're a blast on the 1wt. Some days I need to scratch a different itch. This discussion reminds me of the latest Hank Patterson episode. I must get a wolf-a-doodle and a place to carry some pbr's.

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

I got me a wolfadoodle and love me some PBR. I dont need no insulated vest, a back pocket works fine!

Like I said earlier to each their own. I fish for specks a LOT. I go months and even years without seeing another fisherman on the creek. But I do love chasing some big boys when the weather lines up. If I can get 2 of my friends up to speed I hope to do that a little more often this fall and winter. Look folks, it is like this - Streams have certain regulations. End of story. Fishing is supposed to be fun! A way to get outside hang out with a few friends, get away from all of your friends, help a new person learn, better yet help a kid learn. Catch and eat a couple tasty fish (legally). Pick up some trash. This debate is why I hate fishing tournaments (if that is your thing more power to you that’s your call not mine). It is not about who is better or worse, more right or less right, or is it your river or my river. Go fishing and take a moment to be thankful for how blessed you truly are, that you are still alive and kick'n and are on yet another trip around the sun.


I am out of this discussion. Going down east to fish with fishjunky. Hope yall get out this weekend and enjoy your time.
 
#40 ·
Hank Patterson.... a place to carry some pbr's
Hank has been gracious enough to agree to endorse the new fly-fishing-only vest with the insulated beverage pockets. Consequently, Simms and Fishpond are arguing over who will market it to the chain stores.

Sorry to miss you on Thurs....now exactly where is that barrel???
 
#41 ·
Dylar, did u say a blackfish got your Brown and when I hear Blackfish i think bowfin......interesting if it was a bowfin as I didnt realize they were there.
 
#42 ·
The really big browns on the D, the ones that have gone to wholly predatory feeding behavior, generally darken in coloration, losing the yellow bellies and fins and the red spots. Their backs get so dark that they appear black when viewed from above in the water. They become literally black fish. This fish was one I'd estimate in the 30ish inch range. No bowfin in the Davidson.
 
#44 ·
Dylar, were you fishing the D Thursday evening? I swear I thought I saw you hiking up the road at dark...if so, sorry I didn't stop and give you a ride!
caught one brown below the hatchery on a stimulator btw, and a small one further down.
 
#45 ·
That was me. I managed a matched set of 19" fish (one bow, one brown) out from same undercut lie with a black meat whistle, and a whole bunch of little 8-9" stocker brookies that have been pushed out of the HS section by bait fishing pressure and the summer tube hatch. All the little ones came on a foxee clouser. They keep beating the dumbell eyes out of those flies. It has stopped being funny and entered the realm of annoying. But yeah, as is not at all unusual for me, I waded a lot further from my car than I really had intended to. Hence the long trudge back to the car.
 
#46 ·
Sorry man. Next time ill pick you up...

i need to learn to fish streamers...just don't like it.

What size tippet were you using? Length? How were you fishing them?

I knew that would be the ticket yesterday, but just didn't tie one on.
 
#47 ·
Sorry man. Next time ill pick you up...
No worries man, I don't mind the walk back for the walk down. I spent some time just poking around and watching the birds around an old beaver pond, or I'd have made it back while the sun was still shining.


What size tippet were you using? Length?
Normally, I fish a leader between around 3-4' long. Maybe 2.5' of 20 lb Maxima as the butt, and 18" of 0X fluoro as the tippet. I go something like 2' 20 lb/1' 0X/1' 3X when I fish smaller streamers, which is what I was doing most of the day yesterday.

How were you fishing them?
Usually casting to the bank and retrieving cross current. Yesterday I caught several of the smaller fish letting it drift then swing in the current.
 
#48 ·
How would you handle your line when your lines goes down stream, then turns around and heads back up stream? I lost some trout because of that. I may should have just kept more tension on my line, but not sure I could have kept all the bow out. About 3 to 4 weeks ago was my 1st time stream trout fishing.
 
#49 ·
Streamer fishing is usually pretty much like throwing Rapalas, but using fly gear. Even if there's a bow in the line, you're still going to be maintaining tension, since you're constantly retrieving the line. There's no mystery involved with strikes. Fish don't sip streamers, they're trying to deal an instant death blow, so they crush them. Besides, you see 90+% of the fish as they take the fly.
 
#50 ·
Dylar, this was in a deep pool that I could not see the bottom of. The trout that I caught were caught right at a rock on the opposite side. After casting another couple of times with no strikes, I decided to just come short of the rocks. That is where the current turned around. I saw my line quickly move about 1/2 inch on 2 separate casts. I did not get either of those fish hooked. Since I am new to this type of fishing, could be fly fishermen will just have this to happen once in a while. I was thinking recently that if I had lifted my rod to increase line tension a bit, I may have gotten hook ups. Also, I may not have had my line tension in the right direction well enough. I may should have held my rod more on the down stream side more than I did. Experience, and help from others should make me a better stream trout fisherman, like yourself, in the future.
 
#56 ·
I only own a 7wt, so I'm limited to streamer fishing. I have nymph fished occasionally, and I've had the most success following the fly with the rod tip all the way through the drift and setting the hook back toward the near bank once the fly is downstream of my position. I've had, in general, much more luck setting the hook with a basically horizontal wrist snap for hook sets when nymphing. It seems to have several advantages:

1. It seems to take any slack out of the line quicker than a hook set on a more vertical plane.

2. It is less likely to jerk the fly completely out of the water.

3. It puts you in a better position to control the fish once you hook it by keeping your hands and the line angle low. If the fish is upstream of your position, it puts you immediately in the best position of all, with the fish forced to fight you and the current simultaneously. If the fish is downstream of your position, it means you are immediately applying side pressure, which may allow you to quickly work the fish away from the current and prevent him from running directly down current.
 
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