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Overweight lines

9K views 56 replies 13 participants last post by  OptiMystic 
#1 ·
In browsing around various places trying to figure out a good reasonably priced (read: cheap) fly combo to fish at the coast (in shore, surf and near shore) I have come across the subject of going over weight on lines several times. The way I read it is that if you go up a weight or two (no more than two) you will have a very soft rod rod for the weight, but you can adjust your casting motion a little to account for it. I don't think this is a long term solution by any means, but it would soften the blow of upgrading by spreading the purchase out - get a heavy line, then an upgraded reel (assuming you have a cheep reel that can hold all the line to use at first) and finally the rod. I have a piece of junk plastic reel that has a couple of redeeming qualities - plastic won't corrode and it has a very large spool. I have used it in the surf numerous times with a 6w rod and line casting flies right about the high end for 6 and not all that far (sometimes reasonable distances if the wind helps). If I put an 8w line would I be able to throw bigger flies and/or further distances or would I be hating life every time I tried?
 
#2 ·
The only way to really tell whether you'll hate the increased line weight on your rod is to borrow someones reel spooled with 7 wt and one with 8 wt and try each. Some rods will be pleasant and some will be a nightmare. It really depends on the rod itself.

Another big consideration for the reel is going to be the drag. Heavier / faster saltwater species will require a smoother drag than one used for trout and panfish. I have heard that if it can handle largemouth bass, it can handle inshore (trout, puppy drum, flounder).
 
#25 ·
Another big consideration for the reel is going to be the drag. Heavier / faster saltwater species will require a smoother drag than one used for trout and panfish. I have heard that if it can handle largemouth bass, it can handle inshore (trout, puppy drum, flounder).
I don't buy that you need a "smoother" drag to fish inshore; what is needed is more line capacity. A 4-5 lb wild genetics trout is going to pull about as hard as a 4-5 lb redfish, and the trout is actually faster. The streamer gear used to target really big trout is pretty much identical to what most guys target inshore redfish with. The difference is that even a 10 lb trout in a mountain stream doesn't have anywhere to go, so the threat of the fish dumping a bunch of line is pretty minimal. In the salt, most fish have pretty much unlimited room to run, so the key is a reel with enough line to handle the open spaces and the long runs of saltwater fish and a rod with enough backbone to turn a fish if he heads toward a shellbed or the like. Any halfway decent fly reel is going to have a good enough drag for inshore species, especially given that you rarely see saltwater tippets lighter than about 12#. Drag is much more important with spinning gear, because the reel fights the fish and absorbs most of the shock. With a fly rod, the rod does most of the fighting and the reel is there largely to store line.
 
#3 ·
Long story short: you're not going to cast bigger flies with a bigger line. You may be able to shoot more line because the rod you have will load quicker. If you're going after bigger fish, you need a bigger rod. You can "up-line" the rod, but it's harder to false cast and bigger flies will just compound the problem.

Send me a pm, we have some stuff you may be interested in. You could get a reasonable combo for about $220.
 
#4 ·
Andy,

I’ve be fly fishing the salt for quite some time in Washington State for Coastal (Searun) Cutthroat Trout and Coho Salmon. Back in 2003 I wrote a response to a question posed on Washington Fly Fishing (http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/running-line.4225/page-2) regarding a similar question as yours but as it applied to shooting head systems, something many of us out here use as opposed to full lines. I’ve edited that response here as it applies to your question. Comments appear in [brackets].

_________________start:

If we believe the generally accepted principle that rod manufacturer’s test their rods against 40 feet of line (which they do) and we know that the AFTMA standard only measures the first 30 feet of line (which it does), what part does that extra 10-feet play?

Bruce Richards, the line designer at Scientific Anglers, is often quoted as saying that for every 5 feet of line beyond 30 feet you increase one line weight. it means that a rod designed to cast an AFTMA 6 wt line is actually built to cast an 8 weight amount of grains (since there are 10 feet between the AFTMA 30 feet at the rod’s tested 40 feet.) Divine Revelation. But what he’s talking about is the industry’s standard plastic coated full length lines.

Bill Nash [now deceased], a knot and line testing guru, once posted on Dan Blanton’s Bulletin Board [http://www.danblanton.com/bulletin.php] the optimal line weights for the entire range of rods. Wish I could pass the link on to you, but its dropped out of the Blanton archives. The line weights were beyond the AFTMA line standards by about 2.5 to 3 line designations. What he (Nash) posted on January 26, 2001 on the old Fly Fishing Review board was revelation. What he discovered and shared was “…Rod wts up through #7 should have a load equal to three AFTMA numbers greater than the rod#. Rod wts from #8 and up should have a load equal to two ATMA line numbers greater. The weight of the running line overhang plus the effective load of the line in the guides should be included.

Most who flyfish the salt have come to realize his findings to be valid and they are broadly accepted. I believe it since it works for me.

He went on to say in that article “… Tight loops and the time it takes for the loop to unroll are the major factors in how far the fly will be cast. The longer heads take longer to unroll so it would seem heads longer than 30ft would be preferred, but it is more difficult to cast longer lines, particulary in strong winds and/or when there are obstacles in the rear….”

Most who flyfish the salt [here in the Pacific Northwest] generally find Nash's testing results to be gospel, Dan Blanton included. I’m sure some here will argue the contrary, however. In my personal experience, I've found his findings to be "right on." But, what works for me may not work for you.

The ideal would be to have lines designated by weight in grains rather than by a suggested rod weight use. So much for a perfect world.
______________________end.

Andy, I still find shooting heads to be a good solution for me since they provide interchangeability (floating, intermediate, Type I, Type II etc.) with a simple loop-to-loop connection and they connect to a thin diameter running line. Routine casts to 80-100' with a single backcast are pretty much the norm with minimal effort and a double haul. And, putting together is much cheaper than buying several different lines (floating, intermediate, Type-II etc.).

Big, bulky flies will always present inherent challenges to the fly caster and are not always the answer to bigger fish.

SW FF’ing Tip: when flyfishing the salt, wear a bandaid or waterproof tape on your stripping finger because the salt that accumulates on the line will grind against the crease of the finger joint and abrade the skin. This will become quite uncomfortable or painful by the end of a day’s casting.

Hopefully this helps a bit.

Greg
 
#5 ·
Andy, the answer to your question is no. There are merits to underlining and over lining a fly rod. Think of it as tuning. For example, SA gpx is 1/2 a line wt heavier than what is stated to address the ever growing trend towards people buying faster rods, irregardless of its appropriateness towards their intended task. Over lining a boat rod is a common application as it allows you to load the rod more quickly with fewer false cast. Underlining a rod is less common. You put an 8 wt line on a 6 wt, especially a budget rod, you will not be pleased. At best you won't aerialize the length of line you might achieve with the proper line weight. Think about how overloaded the rod will be with the weight of 50' of 8wt versus the weight of 50' of 6wt. My suspicion is you will be smacking the water all day. Pick out the species, pick out the fly, then pick out what line will best present that fly. After answering this, you will know what rod to buy. After you buy the rod buy a reel that balances well on that rod, considering the weight of the rod and the handle design, and be sure it will hold an adequate amount of backing along with the preselected line. Seems most folks go about this in the exact opposite sequence, but it is really simple. Google over lining and underlining a fly rod. That is the terminology you are referring to. Personally, I do neither.



Dan
 
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#6 ·
Gotta disagree with Dan on one specific, though it's possible he didn't quite mean it the way I read it: "Pick out the species, pick out the fly, then pick out what line will best present that fly. After answering this, you will know what rod to buy."

1. No. Determine the size fish you're going to be handling. THIS will tell you what minimum size rod to buy. I don't care if you're casting midges or 8" baitfish imitations, the rod ultimately is your tool to land the fish. You won't have fun catching bluegill on a 10wt and you'll never land a tarpon on a 4wt. Yes, you need a somewhat bigger rod to handle heavy flies or sinking lines, but this comes 2nd.

I have caught plenty of carp on an 8wt casting a #12 floating worm. It would have been a easier presentation with a 4wt, but I've done that too and it takes forever to land the beast.

As for up-lining and down-lining, here's the simply non-technical answer: Consider up-lining a rod when your false casts are going to be shorter than normal or if the rod is very stiff/fast. Consider down-lining a rod when your false casts may be longer than usual or if the rod is soft/slow.
 
#8 ·
Greg,

Interesting about the PNW acceptance of the idea. Where I found it most was in a couple of striper specific forums. It was far from universal, but it was interesting to me that people who had lots of choices (good rods and reels in just about every weight) do it when they clearly aren't driven by lowering the price of admission like I am. I stumbled across a few lower weight shooting head guys also. Other posters sometimes railed against that idea because of the rod lacking proper backbone to fight the fish without exhausting it (study data I have seen from discussing UL use says otherwise, but that is a different discussion).

Dan,

Your point about smacking the water is a good one. I will be doing a lot of casting from a low seat in a kayak, so a "boat rod" would need to be set up pretty much like I was wading.

Wingfly,

I'll sidestep the disagreement for now, but I do like your simple answer at the end. Well sort of do and sort of don't because I don't think the 6wt I was considering is particularly stiff and fast. It's no noodle, but more middle of the road.
 
#9 ·
If I put an 8w line would I be able to throw bigger flies and/or further distances
Yes. No. Maybe. Maybe not. It all depends.... I find merit in all the responses and good guidance for folks delving into line wts etc. The comments quoted from Bruce Richards are particularly of interest. If.... for every extra 5 feet of line extended from the rod tip we are effectively going up a line weight, then many times some of us are casting much heavier amounts of line than the rod is designated for. And in many cases things work great. Lefty Kreh has routinely stated that today's rods can handle 1 or two line wts heavier than they are rated for. The issue can get kinda fuzzy and cloudy, especially when line manufactuers are making lines that are really 1-2 wts heavier than specified on the box. I spooled a 10 wt Rio line last fall that said 10 wt and also stated the grain wt. The grain wt stated meets the standard for a 12 wt.

Andy, I think you probably could put an 8 wt line on your 6 wt rod and see improved performance...casting bigger flies and maybe achieving more distance, if technique and stroke is "up to snuff." I use to have folks bring in a South Bend 6wt purchased at Wal-Mart. Those rods were pretty stiff and always cast much better when you put a decent 8 or 9 wt tapered line on them. If your old 6 weight is pretty limber (i.e.like a buggy whip)... then maybe the heavier line will be detriment...maybe.

Being in Cary, if you can contact or link up with some of the folks in Triangle Fly Fishers, you could probably be able to put an 8wt on your rod and answer the question pretty quick. However, it may not answer the question, if your casting technique needs a good bit of work and fine tuning.

If you ever get this far west, bring your gear and we can answer the question pretty quick. I always keep extra lines on reels for just such experimentation.
 
#10 ·
However, it may not answer the question, if your casting technique needs a good bit of work and fine tuning.
There is always that. Some of the light weight striper guys made the comment they did put in the practice time to pick up what amounted to a line weight or more when they compared what they could cast and how far to what others were doing. Yeah, my technique needs work. When I fly fished a lot, it was almost always small streams and rivers like the forks of the Platte west of Denver. Rarely needed long casts. When I moved here about 20 years ago, I fished the Neuse right below Falls Dam a lot because it was very fly friendly at low water, but pretty much gravitated to spin gear. For the last several years I have only fly fished every now and then. So my technique needs some tuning.

Are you sure going up a line weight or two isn't a magic bullet to fix that? :D
 
#11 ·
I hate to jump in with this question but it may actually help some, like myself, with less experience/knowledge. My question is does over lining or under lining change the way the line loads the rod dramatically? I ask this because I am trying to learn to cast a fly rod. I am using a 9wt rod with 9wt WF line and a 12' leader. I tested the rod using the "common cents" method and it tested right at 9. My problem is that the rod doesn't feel like it is loading the rod. The rod isn't flexing much on the back cast or the forward when false casting. Remember I am totally new to fly fishing so this may just be my lack of feel. I was expecting the false casts to produced some feeling of resistance as the line straightened out but I'm barely feeling any line weight transmitted through the rod. Hopefully I'll test out a 6wt rod today on my lawn to see if there is a different feel.
Thanks

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
 
#12 ·
Andy, you still coming to the Kinston M&G on March 15? if so, I'll be glad to let you try out any of my fly rods, and We'll up line them to let you get a good idea of what that will do to your cast, and to see how the rod reacts. I've been meaning to do that anyway, so the M&G would be a good place for both of us to learn. I have a "good reasonably priced" 7 wt fly rod that would give you a good idea of how one of those would cast. it was one of the 1st I ever bought. Allen (tarheel fly flinger) or Eddie (Yakattack Fly Flinger) would help you also. They are both good at casting
 
#13 ·
a magic bullet to fix that
Hmmm....I wish. I use to think going from a .38 to a .45 what the final answer in the quest for the bullet. But if your sight alignment and trigger pull is lacking...you still may not hit the target. Or as the gunfighter might say..."speed if fine...but accuracy is final!"

I'm barely feeling any line weight transmitted
I hear you...and thus one of the problems I find with instructors who tell casting students to "feel the rod load." Many times they never do feel the rod load. I encourage folks who are working on their casting to turn their body at a 45 degree angle (or more) so they can easily turn their head and see what the back cast is doing. It should be unrolling horizontal to the ground i.e. parallel...without some big loop drooping low to the ground or smacking the water on the backcast. Folks who never look at their backcast can never correct it. The backcast is the foundation...or key ingredient...to a good front cast.
However, when learning to cast, some folks find that uplining a rod by a couple of line weights will slow things down a bit and allow the caster to begin to feel the weight of the line pull against the rod i.e. load the rod.

M&G on March 15
Sounds like a good opportunity...
 
#14 ·
I have a 7 wt with 8 wt. line. This rig performs horribly throwing even large stuff for long distances. The rod simply does not have enough lift. This rig does well for 40' casts and under. I absolutely would not over line for distance casting. If anything I may start under lining. Not interested in pick up the pieces of a shattered rod at my feet.

Also, some rods have much more lift that others even if they have the same rating. Keep in mind that a very stiff fast action rod probably will not roll cast easily if at all.

Have tested many rods and configurations for warmwater, these are the conclusions I have arrived at based on personal experience and extensive conversations with those who are in the know. One needs 7 wt. for bass, 9 wt for stripers, 11 wt. for Muskies. I'm strongly considering purchasing a switch rod for tailwater stripers to attain longer casting distances. It appears that switch rods are much easier on the shoulders for those of us who are over 40.
 
#16 ·
More great info. If stiff rods don't roll cast well, then the 6wt I was considering is not stiff. It's roll cast has corrected many a cast that just missed the pool I wanted to drift into.

Switch rods? I will have to look into those. What's different about them? I had bad shoulders before age 40 and I am 55 now. Usually it is my back that needs a break from casting first though.
 
#15 ·
EDIT - Lots of replies! this was to RouseD/Dennis about Kinston...

I am still hoping to, but I would have to realistically say I am about 70%. I hope to see you there. I have another thread that was hot for a few days with some other locals to get together and try each other's set ups at a local park with a big field. I intend to stoke a fire back under that idea when the ground is green and dry again.

I think 90% of my technique issues are timing. I am pretty good about not moving the rod too far, which I think is a really common mistake made early on but when to start the forward motion and if/when to haul I am just okay and downright bad at respectively. Over the years I developed a decent roll cast mostly as a corrective action.
 
#17 ·
Andy, if you can make it to the Kinston M&G, you're welcome to try whatever you'd like, if you'd still like to. Hope you can make it. Would love to meet you. Lots of great advice from some fantastic fly casters. I am still learning. Probably will never stop. I need sto start doing what Richard said about casting from a 45 deg angle, and watching my back cast. I have done that some in the past, but feel I could improve my cast by doing it a lot more. I cast better then I ever have now. At my age, I'll probably never achieve a perfect cast.
 
#18 ·
I think I will probably make it to Kinston, but if I get into calendar negotiations (I have a wife and 4 kids; it happens) I have a couple of other ones I am less negotiable on, if that makes any sense. It is getting close enough that it seems less likely that a conflict will come up every day.

I really like where this is going - don't just answer the question but get at root cause and best answer even if it means holding me down and prying open my wallet. I am absolutely not bothered by people questioning my ability to use what I already have or trying to get too much out of the wrong equipment.
 
#21 ·
That diminishes my interest a bit. Pretty special purpose; sounds like it does one thing well. I am looking for a combo that does everything perfectly. :D Oh, and for a song...

The biggest tip given me for helping my shoulders was to never let my thumb get above or behind my ear. Seems to help a lot and also helped to learn not to take the rod too far back.
 
#20 ·
I have problems with people not questioning my abilities. I do a lot of asking, and a lot of trying before I buy. Don't have any fly rod, or any reel that others may consider expensive, but they were to me. I started out like you, and have upgraded a bit to rods that carry a lifetime, or 25 yr warranty, which would be close to a lifetime warranty for me. I know the deal on the wife and kids, but only had one kid that is 44yo now. I have 2 granddaughters that both live close to me, one right next door.
 
#23 ·
If full arm extension is required for long casts, I may have to set my sights a little lower. My shoulders don't just bother me a little if I overuse them; I have had to get cortisone shots a few times and have adapted to avoid things that exacerbate them to avoid getting them scoped.

The high cast I learned in the canyons was called a chimney cast by the guy who taught it to me. It had way more up than back and the forward cast was more of a roll that laid the line back out as it fell. It is useful when you literally have your back against the wall and are casting across a narrow stream.
 
#24 ·
TECHNIQUE TRUMPHS EVERYTHING. practice, practice, practice. Not trying to be Johnny Rain Cloud but up lining, tapers etc are dictated by casting style and your Rod Type (action, length, material, make, model etc). Go to local shops and ask for a time they are not busy and cast 10-20 rods. You will see a lot of difference. Like Richard alluded to, it could help, hurt or do no difference and just cost you some money. Another good option is to work on casting. I practice casting a lot especially early in the season. You can make any cast, with any rod - some are just suited better. For what you are describing, line speed is paramount. By line speed, I mean timing. Make sure your single haul and double haul are dialed in as well as they can be for the equipment you have. FWIW, I spent 20 years with the same POS 5 weight Cortland. It was not, well I am going after this so I need to grab this rod. It was, go grab your fly rod with he cracked "floating" line and deal with it. I still say that made me a much, much better caster. Just because you can cast does not mean you can fish. But then again a fish can't bite the fly if you can’t get it in front of it. You can chuck plenty of big flies with a 6 weight. The beefier rod and line help more with the wind. Sorry if this was no help.
 
#26 ·
TECHNIQUE TRUMPHS EVERYTHING. practice, practice, practice. Not trying to be Johnny Rain Cloud but up lining, tapers etc are dictated by casting style and your Rod Type (action, length, material, make, model etc). Go to local shops and ask for a time they are not busy and cast 10-20 rods. You will see a lot of difference. Like Richard alluded to, it could help, hurt or do no difference and just cost you some money. Another good option is to work on casting. I practice casting a lot especially early in the season. You can make any cast, with any rod - some are just suited better. For what you are describing, line speed is paramount. By line speed, I mean timing. Make sure your single haul and double haul are dialed in
as well as they can be for the equipment you have. FWIW, I spent 20 years with the same POS 5 weight Cortland. It was not, well I am going after this so I need to grab this rod. It was, go grab your fly rod with he cracked "floating" line and deal with it. I still say that made me a much, much better caster. Just because you can cast does not mean you can fish. But then again a fish can't bite the fly if you can’t get it in front of it. You can chuck plenty of big flies with a 6 weight. The beefier rod and line help more with the wind. Sorry if this was no help.
It's helpful.

I should get one of my budding cinematographers out in the backyard to video me. After a round or two of self assessment and correction, I could post something up for ridicule and/or constructive feedback.

Even though a couple of them were rather full of themselves, the 6wt striper guys did have a valid point about getting more out of your equipment with practice. The guy who claimed 80' into the wind with a big Clauser I am not so sure about though...
 
#30 ·
I suspect that there are plenty of expensive reels made without any sort of a drag system as well, but these are going to be mostly for 1-4wt rods used by small stream trout guys. I'd be shocked if you could find a new saltwater type reel that doesn't have an adjustable drag system of some sort, at least without putting some effort into finding precisely that sort of reel.
 
#31 ·
There is a "fancy" half roll cast into a full cast you use with a sinking line. Eliminates most of the false cast and gets your line back on top of the water. I will see if I can find a video when I get home for you.

If you want to look it up, you lift your rod tip up (to get the line up in the water column) do a modified roll cast (which will look ugly) go into a regular back cast (I typically haul here) and go into a final forward cast (i rarely haul here). Google casting a sink tip line and see if you can find it. I rarely have more than 1 back cast like this so my only false cast is the roll cast to get the line out and on top of the water. Sorry I am just a poor mountain boy, I daunt no dem er fiancie names…
 
#33 ·
I have so many late strikes on streamers that I typically retrieve until I get to the leader, but with a sinking line or a sink tip, it usually doesn't take more than 1-2 false casts (if I'm using a double haul) to get the line out there anyway. The trick for me has been learning to simply trust the equipment and my cast just let it go.
 
#34 ·
I don't really see the advantage of messing around with different lines. If I cast a rod and it's flimsy as heck and I have no control. It's either my cast or the line is way too heavy for the rod. If I can't figure out the proper way to cast it I will try dropping a line weight down. If I still can't cast the thing, the rod isn't for me. I had this happen the first time I borrowed a buddies sage rod with full sinking line. It was like trying to cast a 5lb weight with a switch from a tree. More frustrating than it's worth. My thing is if you can cast a rod with the line it has 50ft why even bother changing? It's rare you have to cast much further than that. Also you have to think about accuracy. It doesn't matter if you can cast all the line to your backing if you have no idea where the fly is going to land.

I saw several comments on casting heavy lines and I find it interesting the different techniques people use. I do something a little different. When I'm stripping intermediate or full sinking line in, right when I get to a point where 30-40ft of line is still on the water I raise the rod. Not enough to lift the line off the water. I want the line on the water to create drag and really load the rod. Then in a motion backwards the rod will pull the line off the water virtually back cast itself. Then you can use the momentum to help you shoot line on the forward cast. It's a fun cast when done right and it's very dangerous when done wrong. If the line lifts off the water wrong you will have a fly coming at you at a ridiculous speed. It's a weird looking cast but it woks.
 
#45 ·
I really didn't know what I really didn't know...

I think the best next step for me is to make sure I am getting as much as I can from what I have before moving to other equipment, though I am pretty convinced from a few sources that I need to try a sinking or sinking tip line (not just a sinking tip on a floating line) in 6w. If I can get streamers out to and down to more fish in the sound, surf and out of the yak just beyond the breakers I will probably be happy with the setup for the vast majority of the fishing situations I find myself in. But I really need to work on technique.

I don't think I will get much if any benefit from heavier line on my current equipment, which is the question that started all of this.

I need to try a bunch of heavier rods before I buy one and resist the urge to grab the first cheap possible alternative that comes my way. I really don't need to move up until I have done the aforementioned work with current equipment and find that I am outmatched by conditions or fish.
 
#46 ·
Let me see if I've got this right: You said you don't know what you don't know, that you need to try different sink tips or sinking lines because other sources have convinced you that's what you need, that you want to cast streamer beyond the breakers, that you need to work on your technique, that you don't think you'll get any benefit from heavier line on your current equipment, that you don't need to move up until you work out your current equipment, and that you need to try a bunch of heavier rods before you buy one. Did I get all that right?

For whatever it's worth, and to be totally honest, if I had all that going on and was where you are I'd sell what I had, find a good deal on a quality used 6 or 7 year old technology 8 or 9 wt outfit from a reputable manufacturer (there are many besides the big names) and line it with a shooting line and 3 shooting head (F/I/Type III) system. In the long run, it will prove to be far more useful in the surf as well as the most economical and cost effective way to meet all your criteria, especially casting the bulkier streamers. Dan Blanton has often said "by the best gear you can and only cry once" But that's me.

I understand you're not being interested in my offer to work something out with you, No problem.
Peace, brother, and best of luck in your search for answers.

Greg
 
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