[zky1812]

Thinking about doing something like the following links this summer:

http://toledocommunityboathouse.com/plans/lazyweekender/index.htm

http://www.instructables.com/id/Simple-canoe/?ALLSTEPS

What advise would you guys have on this?

Currently I am only thinking about going to Falls Lake for a body of water or maybe the Neuse river as it is close. I assume those would work there but I have not really been on those bodies of water so I don't know if this application would work.

At the end of the day is it something that one can reasonable fish from or more likely to have new wood pile/decorative ordainment and should have just bought already built one for monetary, safety and sanity reasons.

TIA.

 

[OptiMystic]

I built a pirogue like the ones you are looking at. You can fish from them but they aren't the best for open water and you will bang it up on the river. It's not likely that you will save much money in the long run. Old canoes are often really cheap on CL. Anyway, if you think you will enjoy building it then build it. I am building an SOT kayak now.

 

[Drum Runner]

Having built with much lighter materials and materials more suitable for the task, I wouldn't go that route.
Having said that my first boat build was a 6x6 deck with 4 inner tubes under it, and my moms quilt rack for a mast and boom.
I was under 10 years old.

If you want something that will last, light weight, and something you could get your money back out of if you wanted to sell, there are better routes and better plans. but I'm here to tell you, construction plywood is a POOR material to build a boat out of.

 

[OptiMystic]

Construction ply? I didn't look close.

 

[boorn2b]

OptiMystic, id love to see plans for the sit on top kayak. Are you bringing it to the kerr scott meet and greet ?

 

[OptiMystic]

I am probably not making that M&G this year. So many plans to go places I haven't been yet. Not positive I will be done May 1 but very nearly if not.

Here is the study plan for it:
http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/WV13_study.htm?prod=WV13

It is a fast boat for its size thanks to it's long waterline: no overhangs. (If this boat had the long overhangs of some sea kayaks, she would be 16' long. ) The relatively wide beam makes her a stable boat but compared to most plastic SOT's, the WV13 is narrower at the waterline and fast however, her 5 panel hull gives her good stability. Rocker is moderate for good all around performance.

But I am veering off the design a bit (with input from the designer). I will make the top more like this:

Only not quite as form fitting and with lots of drainage. This is where I am in building:

The "standpipes" are fiberglass tubes through the bottom. Bottom is glassed with 7.5 oz cloth, seams taped inside with 6 oz glass. Wood is marine okoume. I still have to finish the console. I am foam filling the two compartments with drains to above the drains (I will cap them first and then poke a bit through from underneath to find them)and then I will sculpt back to them and form the seat and leg cavities and a big tankwell behind the seat. After I form those and put the deck on, I will glass the top with one continuous piece of 7.5 oz cloth

It shouldn't have the kinks/corners but I had cracks and breaks in the rub rail and I went ahead and cut them clean because it was asymmetric; now it isn't but it has the kinks. I can either live with it or attach external battens before putting the deck on and then take them off after the epoxy dries. The designer suggested that alternative but also told me that integrity is fine.

I actually floated it like this a few days ago. If the drains aren't tall enough I want to know now.

With me and 5 gallon jugs of water in it, it comes pretty close to the top of the centermost drains but not over the top so that's about right.

I have all the rest of my cloth and just ordered some foam mix and more epoxy (not out, but I think I would be before I finished if I didn't order more). I got a great deal on the wood, cloth was on sale and I use a reasonably priced industrial epoxy (US Composites). I still have to get 3 hatches and paint. I will have well over $500 in it, as a point of reference to the OP - if you make one that will hold up well and use good supported plans (I paid $70 for the plans and getting Jacques to answer my questions makes that a good investment) you will spend enough to have bought a decent one on CL instead. You have to like doing it.

 

[boorn2b]

That is looking nice. looking forward to seeing the finished kayak. Very interesting, wonder what the fished weight will be.

 

[OptiMystic]

I will have a pretty good idea soon. The study plan says 40#, but that is with 6oz cloth, no console and no foam. I want to paddle through the breakers into the briny blue. Having just sealed compartments with air for flotation seems a little risky. Heavier glass seems prudent. I cut a few short strips of the 7.5oz cloth and the pointed bow has 3 layers; the stern has 2. I am guessing I will be closer to 60#, hoping for a little under.

 

[Drum Runner]

Wood floats naturally. The only way it sinks is if you go into negative buoyancy with weight.
So lets say you get dumped at sea and the yak is completely swamped. Is there still going to be enough onboard to send it to the bottom? Probably not. If you completely fill every square inch of the hull with water it wouldn't sink because wood floats. If you chopped the boat up into little pieces and cast it out across the water, the boat would float.

On a small boat I think sealed compartments with small limber holes or either sealed compartments with just a sealing deck lid is above and beyond what would be needed without the weight of foam.

On a power boat it's different. I prefer the whole bilge be foamed solid. In the event of striking an object and holing the boat, the foam will displace any water that would would enter the hole. It is pretty much an unsinkable boat at that point.

Air and buoyancy foam have about the same flotation value IF the foam is poured at optimum temperature for expansion. The difference is foam weighs more than air, and foam will degrade, shrink, and soak water at some point.

The one advantage to pouring foam though is strength. It does strengthen a hull and it supports.
That is why it is available in different pound values. Most common is the 2 pound foam. 2 pound has a optimum flotation value of about 64 pounds per cubic foot. An 8 pound foam would be better for support purposes but it has less flotation value. Off the top of my head because I can't remember the exact number without looking it up, I'll say 40 pounds. It is significantly less though.

Those weights on plans are difficult to achieve by even builders with pretty good experience. You would have to strictly adhere to the plans and not deviate. Not trusting the plans or design leads to over building which we've all done if you've ever built a boat. And then the extras all add weight and it adds up quick. A lot of first time builders will use 1 or 2 more gallons of epoxy on a yak. Figure up how much a gallon of that weighs. that is quick instant weight that can't be trimmed out of the boat.

 

[Drum Runner]

Another weight factor.
A sheet of quarter inch construction grade exterior plywood (not treated) is going to tip the scales at 25 pounds a sheet.
A piece of quarter inch Okoume weighs 21 pounds. That doesn't sound like a big difference until you do the math.
On a 5 sheet boat you are looking at 20 pounds in extra weight in wood alone. That isn't counting the fact that it will take more epoxy to fair the construction grade out. With an experienced builder you would be looking at 30 pounds of unnecessary weight.

Than it's the 1/4" plywood thing. You can build fast planing power boats out of 1/4 inch plywood but a paddler out of much less. I've used 2,4,and 6mm plywood on paddlers and I aint no little dude.
I built a 13 footer for someone out of 5.2mm plywood once. Just had the outside glassed. A thunder storm picked it up off the saw horses, slammed into two shelter posts, and sent it flying down range 25 yards. I found it the next day half full of water and not a mark on it. It marked the posts though.

So I don't second guess a good set of plans drawn by a competent designer or naval architect. I use the glass specified other than some sacrificial keel strips on the bottom or on wear points. That is the beginning to keeping the weight out of it.
Amateurs building anything tend to over engineer and over build. I'm guilty of that when I get into metal where I'm not that versed in it's strengths and weaknesses.

We got a crowd down here that can build anything you could ask for out of their weld shop. If I went in there and told them I wanted a tater plow that would roll the little ones to the left and the big ones to the right, I have no doubt they could make one. No doubt at all. My doubt would be that I doubt my 3 point hitch could pick it up. They aren't engineers, but they sure can fabricate and weld. They way over build.

 

[OptiMystic]

I agree I am exceeding what is necessary. The plans actually mention you can go one size thinner on ply (either 3 or 4 mm). All through the plan, Jacques has "TBP" (To Builder's Preference) and that is where either a lot of experience or access to the designer and/or others with a lot of experience comes in. This is my 3rd boat. After the pirogue I built a little round bottom pram. I still screw up sometimes. I still need guidance. Back to the OP's original post, if you decide to do the little canoe, I would encourage the "cheap canoe" at Bateau.com. That's the one I built. It's a free plan, but Jacques still devotes a little of his time (but very little of his patience ) to answering questions from builders of that plan. Free plans from Bateau.

 

[zky1812]

Wood floats naturally.

Burn her!!!


(Sorry couldn't help the Monty Python reference)

 

[zky1812]

Thanks for information much to think about.

 

[OptiMystic]

Another little tidbit to think about with respect to free plans. The free one at Bateau is almost the same one as the others you ae looking at. The cheap and easy ones are all flat bottom with one piece sides. Read the excerpt I quoted from the study plans from what I am building now again:

It is a fast boat for its size thanks to it's long waterline: no overhangs. (If this boat had the long overhangs of some sea kayaks, she would be 16' long. ) The relatively wide beam makes her a stable boat but compared to most plastic SOT's, the WV13 is narrower at the waterline and fast however, her 5 panel hull gives her good stability. Rocker is moderate for good all around performance.

That is exactly what I want in a boat. I pored over plans and asked questions in the presale forum to make my decision and I didn't just look at Bateau (I know DR is partial to JEM; they also have great plans. So does CLC and others). The likelihood that you get exactly what you want is pretty low with free plans. It could happen and those boats will get you on the water (and probably back home again ) but buying a plan ends up being a small factor in the overall cost of a nice boat.

 

[zky1812]

I agree on plans, that is why I ask but I am also new to this so I don't know what I am looking for.

 

[Drum Runner]

I've built both JEM and Bateau plans. As far as quality they are the same plans. JEM is based out of Greensboro, NC and it's focus is small boats. Kayaks and canoes. I'm currently building a JEM 15' sit on top. When I open the shop back up in the spring, you are more than welcome to come by and take a look at a couple of JEM boats.

jemwatercraft.com

 

[Drum Runner]

Burn her!!!


(Sorry couldn't help the Monty Python reference)

Let's say I did burn her, scooped whats left out of the burn barrel and threw it off the dock.....the majority of her would still float. Wood floats, wood cinders float.

Heard the name Monte python but never seen him, it...whatever it is.

 

[Drum Runner]

I agree on plans, that is why I ask but I am also new to this so I don't know what I am looking for.

Take a sheet a paper and make 2 columns. The first column is what you want and expect out of a boat no matter what. The second is what you would like to have but could live without. That is going to narrow it down. I've had to make decisions between 3 power boat hulls. Through the process of elimination it came down to one boat.

Right here on this site you have two different kinds of builders.
For me, it's my main hobby and an expensive one so I must showcase a little work so I can move one once in a while into the market which will ultimately pay for my next project. I'm a perfectionist in a lot of ways. Some things I can let go others I can't. I don't mind spending the dime for good results.

Every hull I'll always try something different. It may be something that nobody will ever see because it will be down in between the hulls. I think future. I look at some of the Herreshoff sailboats built almost a century ago (and I don't give a flip about a blow boat) still floating and heavily sought after. And people today still building Herreshoff designs. A legacy. That is what I strive towards to a degree. Creating what could be an heirloom to somebody one day. Like grandma's old china cabinet. One day, one of my boats may come back home to a great great nephew or grand daughter or grand son long after I'm gone.


Opti the other builder is almost 180 out from how I build as well as in politics. Imagine that. With 4 youngins I don't doubt budget is a concern and looks aren't as important as function.
It's pretty much two different roads that lead to the same place. Neither is right or wrong except to the one building the boat. It's preference and it starts with that sheet of paper and 2 columns. What you want and what you would like to have but could live without.

 

[OptiMystic]

I understand that the boat would float in pieces or even intact and totally swamped. I hope it never matters for either of us, but my hope is that if my hull gets breached despite the extra glass and water fills a compartment I can still paddle at a reasonable speed and get back in. Because my two largest sections will have flotation below the waterline and drains above, only the ends could really swamp and they wouldn't hold as much. And as you point out, my hull will be stronger for it. Is it overkill? Absolutely. It's another reason to build - DR can make his a little more of a sport model and I can make mine a little more of a tank (a nimble tank though; I am not adding a crazy amount of weight).

 

[Drum Runner]

I have no clue how you would go about holing 4mm with glass laid per plan on that boat. I'm almost afraid to ask. Pistol without a safety and a hair trigger?


Is it a trust issue because it looks and feels flimsy when you are putting it together?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyJpb9ug8HQ